Is it bad to talk about a working?

topic posted Wed, March 5, 2008 - 6:16 PM by  Donovan
I've heard more experienced practicioners say it's not good not discuss the details of workings with others because their energy can influence the outcome. or even my practice at all for that matter. also along those lines, why do we need to keep magickal weapons covered up and not allow them to be handled by others. would fellow practiconers be an exception to the rule? any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.
posted by:
Donovan
SF Bay Area
  • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

    Wed, March 5, 2008 - 8:02 PM
    It all depends on the working. Some working benefit from secrecy and seclusion, some benefit from publicity. The traditional treatment of magical weapons helps to ensure that they are free from associations other than their ritual purpose. However, if you're not traditional, you might find that some ritual tools benefit from being passed around. It all depends on what you want from the ritual. Test your options and find what works for you.

    (In general, when we're starting out it's good practice to pick traditions and explore them as they are given. It helps us to learn the uses and reasons for these various practices. But when you aren't specifically exploring those traditions, you are, in fact, free to experiment.)
  • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

    Wed, March 5, 2008 - 11:30 PM
    If you don't want to discuss your work with others, then do not. But, making such absolute statements sounds more like paranoia than logic.

    Some things I let people touch, other things I prefer that they do not. I've had people drop things and break them. Rather than take a risk and possibly have to demand payment, I prefer to not let people touch certain items. If some clumsy loon got ahold of a glass dagger, his energies might break it because he might drop it.
    • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

      Thu, March 6, 2008 - 2:32 PM
      It's obvious that I'm talking about objects on an astral level not a physical level. If youre a materialist than of course it will sound paranoid. I suppose my real question would be do physical objects really hold energy deposits or is it all just placebo?
      • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

        Thu, March 6, 2008 - 4:17 PM
        you can hold energy on objects. if your sensitive enough to feel energy you know what im talking about.

        it doesnt even have to be an object it can be on (what seems to be ) empty space. for example ritual space. you can even put energy in a post or email. dont ask how that works cuz i dont know(quantum shit i guess). but its done.

        does this answer your question?
        • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

          Thu, March 6, 2008 - 7:53 PM
          Grace,

          Just to touch on what you said....

          You transfered the energies that were in your mind into the construct of English, and through the means of reproduction--the computer--you transfered them a new medium--the email format--and shared it with us.

          It doesn't have to be explained through quantum mechanics, though this is possible.
      • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

        Thu, March 6, 2008 - 7:51 PM
        Actually, nothing you have said or are saying is obvious. I don't know you, and to presume that I do is not an entirely rational position, IMO.

        Why does the fact that you are talking about astral level objects negate paranoia? If astral objects are not subject to these concerns, then it should not matter. You seem to suggest that astral objects are beyond the concerns of material objects, even though it is widely accepted that material objects manifest from the eidetic or astral plane.

        If that is the case, you wish to do work astrally that will affect the physical plane, how can you denounce the suggestion of paranoia as being materialist? In the philosophical sense, materialism is: (philosophy) the philosophical theory that matter is the only reality. [2] If I were a materialist, I would not have answered your question, and would think you to be a loony.

        >Do physical objects really hold energy deposits or is that placebo?

        I'm not sure I understand your question. Placebo is a medical term meaning: An innocuous or inert medication; given as a pacifier or to the control group in experiments on the efficacy of a drug. [1] I'm not sure if you meant this in a medical sense or not. You may wish to clarify your question.

        What energy deposits are you referring to? All objects hold weak and strong nuclear forces, and various electric charges that create quarks, neutrinos, electrons, and so on. In a sense, yes, they do hold energy deposits, but, I'm not sure what deposits you are referring to, again you may wish to clarify your question.



        Source:

        [1] Wordweb dictionary
        [2] Ibid.
        • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

          Thu, March 6, 2008 - 10:12 PM
          I am not here to be argumentative or show off some deep knowledge of magick. I am genuinely curious about how it works. By energy as I understand it so far I meant something similar in nature to prana, qi, kia, ka. Can this "ENERGY" be stored in an object? Is this what Peter Carroll meant by "aetheric influences" If this is caused by human thought and emotion it would seem that it could also be changed by someone else in an undesirable way.

          When occultists talk about "charging a weapon" what are they charging it with? I understand that one purpose of a weapon on a physical level is to impress the mind psychologically. I also understand that if someone drops a weapon it could break, but thanks for clarifying that. But on an astral level, what's going on?

          And yes, I did mean placebo in the medical sense. To me placebo is any psychological trickery used to impress the mind into causing a healing affect. This would include medieval exorcism as well as techniques used by shamanistic witch doctors, not just modern western doctors.
          • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

            Fri, March 7, 2008 - 9:40 AM
            generally, its suggested to not talk about a working. If it is a private thing, you probably shouldn't talk about it with anyone, the exception being anyone whom you see as an occult mentor, who will hopefully have enough self control to stick only to ritual stuff and to not cast doubt on your intent or desire.
            If you are doing group work, then the group should discuss and be in agreement about the work.
            If you are doing public work, it depends upon if its intent. Ritual observance (for example wiccan sabbats) feel free to talk about and share what it is that you are doing. I think if you are doing public ritual for other things, just do it, and let other people guess your intent.

            Ritual tool protocol is specific to the tradition or your desire. If you don't want people touching your tools, then don't let them. If its not a big deal to you, then don't worry about it.

            For myself, I am a member of tradition where there are tools that I can never show to people outside of the tradition. For other things that I have acquired before I was brought in, Its not a big deal to me. I would prefer if they didn't, and if they do, prefer they ask, but they can't hurt my stuff. However, they may affect themselves in ways that they perhaps don't wish to be.
          • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

            Fri, March 7, 2008 - 10:41 AM
            Donovan,

            I would say none of us have any deep knowledge of magick or we would not be on tribe.net talking about it. If I had the knowledge of magick that I want, I would most likely be in the Hindu Kush performing workings for the better part of my life. Perhaps, we are all curious explorers. I know I am.

            To answer your question about storing energy: I don't know. I can feel energies in certain objects, but, my personal verifications would not be accepted by a scientist, for example. A Scientist would need some sort of equipment to extend his senses to measure the energy, and he would need a definition of the energy and a standard of measure. Everything is permissible. It could happen. How would we verify that? If we could, would everyone accept that as a means of verification?

            To be practical, I suggest that you try whatever experiments you have in mind vis-a-vis storing energy in objects. Figure out what kind of results you are looking for, try it, and see what happens. Perhaps, you would share your results here? Perhaps, you have a specific experiment in mind, and you could post that here as well. Maybe, you want to store love in a can for example, you could write something up, and post it here. Perhaps people would have ideas, suggestions, and what not.

            I think what Pete meant by "aetheric influences" is a theory that aether touches everything, and that the physical world manifests out of the aether. By focusing thought and emotion, you can influence the aether before it manifests into physical reality. Where did you come across this concept? Its been a while since I read his three books, I should get back to them, but, lack the time.

            Charging a weapon could mean several things. One method is to put your energy--normally anger, hatred, malice--into a dagger and hurl it at a target. The idea is to focus your energy on the object--and its astral double--and use that object--and the double--to transfer that energy to a target.

            I suppose we will never know if it is placebo, but, if it works, what does it matter? If the ritual is not necessary it will make itself obsolete, IMO.

            I tried my best to answer your questions. I don't have the answers, either. We are here to share.
          • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

            Fri, March 7, 2008 - 11:46 AM
            "Energy" is stored in all objects. it is the magician who can use psychic energy with intention. to "experience" this energy you must have a sensitivity. for example see the energy, feel the energy, or hear the telepathic message in the energy. if you have not developed a sensitivity i suggest learning an energy model and using psychedelics to open the door thats there already. you dont have to use drugs . they are addictive and dangerous to fragile minds (my brain is sensitve and fragile with chemicals) . you must be very self aware of sensations and emotions to start this work.

            even after you start to have sensitivities you will still be baffled by how psychic energy works. seeing energy also helps you learn how energy travels and what colors it may hold. empathy is simple as well since emotions energy is similar to most people. vibrotugy (is that whats its called) is the basic feeling of vibes some feel light some heavy , crispy, or warm.

            as for placebo yes you can trick yourself. but thats can have a positive effect or negative effct depending on where you put your superstions.
            with intent you can turn a sugar pill into a cure if you Will it to be.
            • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

              Fri, March 7, 2008 - 12:06 PM
              just to second Grace Moans, there are people who declare that it is the belief in the certain chemical being able to help or harm that makes them act that way. "Placebos' can be just as healing as "actual chemicals". I think the true purpose of most drug studies is to only affirm to the scientists their belief in a chemicals activity. Science after all is just another paradigm.
              • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

                Fri, March 7, 2008 - 4:13 PM
                A paradigm that hasn't been around long enough for us to see if it really does work or not.

                The justification for this paradigm is all the wonderful toys it creates, like atom bombs, and space shuttles.

                This is how a medicine show works, if the juggler is good, the medicine must be even better....
                • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

                  Fri, March 7, 2008 - 7:02 PM
                  the nerophilosophy link got cut off. This was the better article about experiments with the tibetan monks.

                  neurophilosophy.wordpress.com/200...ple/
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

                    Fri, March 7, 2008 - 7:21 PM
                    The Japanese photographer may or may not be credible, but the point is efforts are being made to measure what I think is magickal energy. I personally would love to find a way to measure this stuff for myself. So far all I can say is a recent sigil I charged was shown to me in a dream state lit up and glowing as if alive. It also had a feeling to it. I'm sure a skeptic would have a filed day with that example! haha!

                    another thing I try sometimes is run my hand over food at grocery stores to see if I can feel anything. Ive never felt anything so far. Ive heard that Tibetans say it's bad to eat "angry cow" which I think means it's possible to eat the emotional states of food especially animals. Now whenever I see people fighting at restaurants while they're preparing my food I wonder if eating that meal would be the best idea. So far Ive never felt any thing from that either but I still think it couldnt hurt to put love into your own food when cooking at home.
                    • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

                      Fri, March 7, 2008 - 7:28 PM
                      one of my favorite restaraunts is run by an elderly Indonesian couple that are constantly fighting.

                      I feel great afterwards, every time. the food is really good. I wouldn't sweat it with angry cooks.
                      • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

                        Sun, March 9, 2008 - 3:08 PM
                        whatever happened to cooking with love.

                        kinda like the phrophet in the matrix.
                        eat this cookie and youll feel right as rain.(or something to that affect.)

                        maybe her cookies were better not just because they werent burnt but because the phrophet was a magician and magick cookies are the Bomb.

                        or the slice of cake that made that girl bust a nut in the restaurant. it was the french mans intent to make her cum all over her panties cuz he was a magician and put a spell on it.
                        • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

                          Wed, March 12, 2008 - 4:22 PM
                          You bring up an excellent point.

                          Food should be cooked with love, or at the very least in a good mood. It should be eaten when one is in a good mood as well.

                          Even biologists recognize the the first obligation of an organism is to survive, thus you need to eat. You should enjoy surviving and eating, otherwise your only a tube trying to make other tubes, and probably make life miserable for the tubes around you.

                          I'm not trying to be moralistic about eating, I'm simply asking, what is the point if you do not enjoy it?

                          Of course then, some will run around seeking only hedonistic pleasure at the expense of integrity, and they will wonder why their abuses always bring shit down around them, and why woe is they.
  • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

    Sun, March 9, 2008 - 1:57 PM
    I think it depends on the working. Some workings are better done quietly. Others are better done publicly.

    I think it also depends to some extent on your theory of magick. Mine involves (self)hypnosis, trance states, and the belief that we telegraph an infinite amount of information through our body language. Based on my theory of magick, quiet/secret rituals are better for changes we want to create, but don't want attributed to ourselves. But public or more widely known rituals are better for spreading the word and getting information out there.

    Put another way, if i were going to do rituals with a political outcome, would I want it known that I was doing so? Maybe. Maybe not. Would I still go volunteer for my favorite candidate? maybe. maybe not. Would I need to avoid volunteering for my favorite candidate simply because I was also doing ritual around it? Unlikely.

    A lot of this just looks to me like "out" issues. How out do you want to be? How much do you want other people to know about either your methods or intended goals?
    • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

      Mon, March 10, 2008 - 6:49 PM
      I think being out as a practitioner of magic depends upon how much we can handle having people ask us sometimes stupid and annoying questions. Or, how much you want people to know they can turn to you for help, or a magical/spiritual kind.
      • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

        Sat, March 15, 2008 - 4:28 PM
        I don't waste my time with losers. People who ask stupid and annoying questions do exist in my life, as I do not associate with such people long enough for them to ask such questions.

        I don't mind helping those who need it. As long as they realize that my help is more of a medicine than a diet.
  • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

    Tue, March 11, 2008 - 1:25 PM
    I wait AT LEAST 9 months before revealing a Working- sometimes YEARS but yeah its all relevant- some people beleive in "Magickal Leakage" an dthere is something to be said about keeping things quiet - AT LEAST until something Manifest

    BUT you know---do you want people telling YOU whats "good" or "bad" ????
    • Re: Is it bad to talk about a working?

      Wed, March 12, 2008 - 4:20 PM
      Some people do....

      *knocks down straw men left and right*

      Some people like George W. Bush to define reality for them.

      Many will fall on the left, and many will fall on the right, but, the just man shall not move....

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