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so, what do yall think of coming to favor one paradigm more than others? most of you who I'm friends with know I've been concentrating on the Hindu Tantric paradigm for quite some time, and among Hindus (of the ethnic Indian variety), I am accepted quite easily as indistinguishable from them apart from my skin color and cultural context - often I am asked what part of India my family is from (and I really don't look Indian)... hehe
anyway, that particular paradigm (Hinduism in general) is almost a metaparadigm within itself. it's almost a fallacy to even call Hinduism a single religion, as there are a myriad interpretations of even the most basic texts and teachings; additionally, the folks I like understand that *their paradigm has no inherent Truth to it* - the more advanced practitioners tend to present religious practice as templates for self growth which are ultimately arbitrary, and which do not preclude the other. I have continued to study Kabbalah, etc. but my main focus has definitely been Hinduism. now, because of the nature of the branch of Hinduism I like, many of the goals of Chaos Magic are shared by left handed Tantra. so really, I have no problem calling myself a practitioner of the school to anyone. the only dogma I've picked up is a firm belief in nondualism, which, Carroll aside, I am convinced is a much healthier model of an amoral universe than any dualist philosophies are, once you get to the good stuff and past most of the crap that has been brought to the west over the past century (by Indians as well as westerners).
so I don't really see associating with this particular paradigm to be limiting in any way other than that I stopped eating beef, and I actually feel better for it (and I have other reasons as well) - the suspension of disbelief and the conscious manipulation of belief for a particular end are both things that you end up discovering are valuable and perhaps necessary tools for Tantra, although it is not often made explicit. but I understand that some might disagree. Josh warns in PP that becoming a Systematic Chaos Magician carries with it the inherent danger of becoming a true believer. but if one becomes a true believer in a paradigm that views itself as arbitrary, what is the real difference? at this point would I be advised to switch things up just to avoid stagnation? I actually became fascinated with this particular paradigm and the richness (as well as the thousands of years of practice which go a long way towards reinforcing conviction) of the systems makes me realize that I'll have to stick with it for quite some time to really master it, if I ever do. I see plenty of room for non-stifling growth within it. additionally, with all of the divinities to placate there is usually a specific ritual and deity that corresponds to what it is you are wanting to achieve, and it works pretty well.
does that make me a heretic yet again? ;)
anyway, that particular paradigm (Hinduism in general) is almost a metaparadigm within itself. it's almost a fallacy to even call Hinduism a single religion, as there are a myriad interpretations of even the most basic texts and teachings; additionally, the folks I like understand that *their paradigm has no inherent Truth to it* - the more advanced practitioners tend to present religious practice as templates for self growth which are ultimately arbitrary, and which do not preclude the other. I have continued to study Kabbalah, etc. but my main focus has definitely been Hinduism. now, because of the nature of the branch of Hinduism I like, many of the goals of Chaos Magic are shared by left handed Tantra. so really, I have no problem calling myself a practitioner of the school to anyone. the only dogma I've picked up is a firm belief in nondualism, which, Carroll aside, I am convinced is a much healthier model of an amoral universe than any dualist philosophies are, once you get to the good stuff and past most of the crap that has been brought to the west over the past century (by Indians as well as westerners).
so I don't really see associating with this particular paradigm to be limiting in any way other than that I stopped eating beef, and I actually feel better for it (and I have other reasons as well) - the suspension of disbelief and the conscious manipulation of belief for a particular end are both things that you end up discovering are valuable and perhaps necessary tools for Tantra, although it is not often made explicit. but I understand that some might disagree. Josh warns in PP that becoming a Systematic Chaos Magician carries with it the inherent danger of becoming a true believer. but if one becomes a true believer in a paradigm that views itself as arbitrary, what is the real difference? at this point would I be advised to switch things up just to avoid stagnation? I actually became fascinated with this particular paradigm and the richness (as well as the thousands of years of practice which go a long way towards reinforcing conviction) of the systems makes me realize that I'll have to stick with it for quite some time to really master it, if I ever do. I see plenty of room for non-stifling growth within it. additionally, with all of the divinities to placate there is usually a specific ritual and deity that corresponds to what it is you are wanting to achieve, and it works pretty well.
does that make me a heretic yet again? ;)
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 10:15 PMPractice everthing
But practice nothing
Be yet be not
All practices are paths to awakening
I take one path
and when it converges with other
The other path I may take
I may not
But they all lead you back
To where you already are
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Unsu...
Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sat, July 19, 2008 - 10:50 PM>>the folks I like understand that *their paradigm has no inherent Truth to it* - the more advanced practitioners tend to present religious practice as templates for self growth which are ultimately arbitrary, and which do not preclude the other.<<
Ultimately, I think it all comes down to the finding of your inherent True Self and True Power, whatever highways and/or byways you may choose to travel.
>>the only dogma I've picked up is a firm belief in nondualism,<<
you could say that this is the foundation of all esoteric and occult systems. That is to say, the workings of your mind and your own own internal landscape are inseparable from the external reality you are living in. -
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Unsu...
Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 11:31 AMwell it sounds like your not bored of hinduism yet.
for me my favorite paradighms are like food. i get tired of it if i have it too much and have to come back and try it later.
the only paradighm i havent been bored by is the creation of my own paradighm.
thats because it changes so much and still in the works.(probably forever)
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Mon, July 21, 2008 - 11:36 AMMost authors of the Chaos Magick tomes that I've read recommend doing specifically what it sounds that you are doing.
Getting into a paradigm, embedding it, working with it and exploring every crevice of it's "reality". Then, if it causes you to feel binding, and no longer serves, know that you have the capability to change.
The practice of "Paradigm Hopping" is more specifically geared towards the creation of a fluid personality, easily malleable to your will. One that will up and change a shitty living situation because they recognize how easy it is to change. One that becomes skilled at recognizing and changing emotional habits because they realize the ease with which alterations are possible.
It's not about trying on belief systems as though digging through a tickle trunk. It's about learning a specific skill - the skill of Klesha Smashing, of Fluid Personality, and of Self Love.
If the Hindu Tantric practices serve your intended growth and development, and take a form and flavour that appeals to your unique sense of style, give-er. With tenacity.
And then, leave a sacred and honourary space for the uncertainess and novelty to seep in. Always.
(All 4 elements are here. 5 is spirit! Spirit is missing! Oh boy, that means we get to go have an adventure!)
Incidentally, from what I've read, a good majority of Chaotes settle down into Tantra during the later years.
From my (extremely limited) experience of it's practices and approaches, I can easily understand why.
If being a Heretic gives you kicks, sure.
Namaste.
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 10:36 AMBURN THE HERETIC!!!!
hehe
There is a dogmatic way of thinking that says you need to be changing paradigms every day/week/month/year etc... I don't think there is anything wrong in sticking with what works for you, whatever it happens to be. If you think are you being too much of loyalist, go check out another meadow and see how that makes you feel.
I could be accused of paradigmatic loyalty as well, but I don't worry about the accusers.
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Unsu...
Re: Paradigm Loyalty and Piracy
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 4:50 PMSaul wrote;
"Josh warns in PP that becoming a Systematic Chaos Magician carries with it the inherent danger of becoming a true believer. but if one becomes a true believer in a paradigm that views itself as arbitrary, what is the real difference? at this point would I be advised to switch things up just to avoid stagnation?"
I actually changed my handle from Paradigm Pirate to Chaos Mage after re-reading the book you are referring to... I just find his way of expressing everything in "getting laid, making money, and watching your enemies suffer" as a pretty lame approach to exploring paradigms in general. Hey - it works for HIM. For mySelf I believe I'm more into the purer element of Chaos as a manifestation of the infinite directions we have on our "Path" at every given moment - which means to me that Chaos is inherent in all paradigms. If you don't agree, or are in danger of becoming a "True Believer" of a given paradigm, and don't desire this - then BY ALL MEANS, bag it and move happily onward. However, I see your pursuit as being authentic in that you have not lost the ability to question it.
Namaste,
Steve
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Thu, July 24, 2008 - 6:56 PMThe pattern continues. Many second gen chaotes have ceased and severed associations with chaos magick in favour of "settling down", and Tantra has been the mode of choice for the majority. It just seems to work out that way.
Loyalty for loyalty's sake is worthless, but if you're finding tangible value in how you work and what you do, that's ultimately what's going to make the difference. Plurality versus monotony - only in a dualistic universe, which, as we know, this ain't. Worry less about stagnation, and more about what's fulfilling your needs (whatever they may be).
In short, you're approaching where many have been, and that's ok, even if you are missing the point a bit. We all grow up some time. -
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sat, July 26, 2008 - 8:58 PMI'm not really loyal enough to be dependent on any particular paradigm, but I will say that the Tao has influenced me more than other belief systems have.
The Tao, and the X-Men. -
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 1:01 AMI will drink (water) to that. -
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sun, July 27, 2008 - 10:57 AMI think it's fine to beLIEve and/or practice within whatever paradigm you choose so long as you don't pull the wool over your own eyes and start beLIEving that your chosen practice is the "only true path".
YMMV as ever
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Unsu...
Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Wed, July 30, 2008 - 4:39 PMEat a hot dog on Friday and think about it, Pope Saul.
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Re: Paradigm Loyalty
Sat, August 2, 2008 - 10:40 PMSome Chaotes make the mistake of turning paradigmal piracy into a rigid dogmatic paradigm of its own. These are generally the same ones fixated on what is or isn't Chaos magick instead of discovering what works for them. The label of Chaos magick becomes more important than the will and well-being of the mage.
"Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back." -Sifu Bruce Lee
Heresy is in the eye of the beholder.
118,
c426